ninazino | Об иммиграцию и ассимиляцию

Бедный Том Брокау нарвался сегодня: осмелился сказать, что он считает, что “hispanics should work harder on assimilation”. Критика не замедлила последовать, главный пункт критики: Брокау отстал от жизни, потому что латинос отлично ассимилируются, особенно молодежь (no kidding!). И по-английски говорят часто лучше многих рожденных здесь американцев.

Мои два цента: я не вижу ничего оскорбительного в пожелании лучшей ассимиляции. Если она и так хорошо идет, то и ладненько, чего тут обидного? Но «если где-то кое-кто у нас порой» говорит в основном по-испански (я подозреваю, что в комьюнити, где в основном живут хиспаники/латинос может не быть стимула для изучения английского), то тем более разумно прислушаться.

Помните коллизию, когда испаноязычная подавальщица кубинского происхождения не стала обслуживать пару клиентов на том основании, что она не понимает по-английски? Молодая, между прочим.

Так что если тот отказ принять за чистую монету (я-то думаю, что там на самом деле расизм взыграл, клиенты были черные), то ничего оскорбительного в пожелании Брокау нет, таки некоторым коммьюнити надо стараться лучше ассимилироваться.

Я надеюсь, все знают мое отношение к иммиграции. Оно сопутствует столь же твердому убеждению, что настоящие иммигранты — это те, кто старается вписаться в общество, особенно это требует освоения языка хотя бы на бытовом уровне для взрослых, и полного освоения — для молодежи.

Crossposts: https://ninazino.livejournal.com/1850126.html

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

kouzdra

Что до латиносов - у меня сведения системы "приятельница рассказала" и примерно 15 летней давности - но они такие: она тогда перешла на работу в какой-то из кажется техасских университетов, до этого несколько лет проработав в Испании. Так говорила что знание испанского у нее было очень нехилым там конкурентным преимуществом, и что да - вопрос еще какой там на самом деле язык основной.

Так что не community это

From:

gomberg

Are you assimilating? I notice, you prefer to write here in Russian. Yes, of course, you know English - but knowing English is not "assimilation," it is just part of being "reasonably educated" these days. I mean, my Mexican students speak excellent English, though most of them have no plans to move to the US, except, possibly, for grad school.

As you know, I live in Mexico. I do speak Spanish - with a heavy accent and frequently confused noun genders, but I do speak it. But at work our first language is English - even at lunch and even if most people around are native Spanish speakers. I have a colleague who refuses to speak Spanish after over 20 years in the country - when he moved here he was told it was an English-speaking department, and he feels no need to bother with Spanish. He speaks 5 languages, but Spanish is not one of them. You know, speaking Spanish is not a necessary part of being "reasonably educated".

Am I assimilating? Might be a good question - but I have never bothered with it. Or been bothered. But, actually, I would bet nobody has really bothered you about assimilation either. You are well-educated, reasonably wealthy, you are fine.

The people who present a visible face of "non-assimilation" are the poorest and the least educated. They fail to "assimilate" not because they do not want it, but because they have to choose their priorities. Their life would have been infinitely easier if they spoke good English, and they, of course, know it. But that is a luxury they cannot afford - they have to eat and feed their kids first. Unlike me (or you), neirther do they have resources for such a luxury as maintenance of any sort of separate identity or culture: that will be left to their better-educated and fluently anglophone grandchildren. They speak Spanish (or, for that matter, Quiche or Totonac) not because they "do not work hard enough", but because they work very hard.

And, BTW, I would bet, knowbody had ever bothered that Miami woman about "non-assimilating". That is not the community anyone has ever tagged as a "problem". Oh, yeah, they generally speak excellent English (when they want to), but they, actually, have created the most stable "foreign" society anywhere on the US soil. But, like you and me, they are not viewed as a problem.

And one more thing. My own ancestors were part of the archetypal unassimilating community in European history. Unlike the poor migrants, who, in general, would love to merge into the larger society, they were deliberate and ideological about it. My family only culturally "assimilated" into the Russian society perhaps, a couple of generations before I myself left Russia in order to wind up being an "Anglo" in Mexico. And, I dare say, the concept of "assimilation" was, generally, not viewed positively in that particular community - and still, generally, is not..

In fact, there are still quite a few people who adhere to that old anti-assimilationist doctrine, and that idea is very much alive in the United States. Last I heard, the New York State government has had a difficulty ensuring that children would so much as learn to read and write English in certain community schools. Of course, the language those children read and write is not Spanish.

From:

ninazino

I see your point. I really do.

And I also know about closed communities, like amish people. They don't assimilate big way.

But the thing is -- critics of Tom Brokaw didn't limit their critique only to "they tried hard enough, so you don't dare to say they should try harder", but also that he calls for forced assimilation, for forbidding speaking Spanish, and so forth. Doesn't this bother you?

And for what it's worth, I for one am bothered with non-assimilation of the infamous Miami woman and her community. Because she brings the racism and prejudices from her old country to this one.

From:

gomberg

Well, had there been no such communities, the "Jewish problem" would have been resolved a thousand years ago. Even though I am both assimilated and an apostate, I find that possibility rather unpleasant.

The fact is, historically calls for assimilation nearly always softly transition into all sorts of unpleasantness for the unassimilated (including bans on speaking the "unassimilated" languages and such). So, assuming Mr. Brokaw possesses reasonable education in history, I am not at all bothered he has been called out on this - it would have botehred me if he were not.

And I am certainly not bothered by the non-assimilation of that particular Miami community - with all its prejudices, etc. I mean, I like the arroces at the Versailles too much to be really bothered. Alas, quality of food goes down a lot with assimilation, you do not find?

From:

ninazino

No! I was never for assimilation of food!

But I just try to be intellectually honest and consistent. For example, I think that people who live in Ukraine should make at least some effort to learn Ukranian, why wouldn’t I wish the same for my country?

From:

gomberg

I am also fairly consistent in my views. Thus, I am of the opinion that it is nobody´s business what language I happen to speak or not to speak. To the extent I learned Spanish, I did it because I wanted it. I certainly could easily survive without it. At home I speak Russian - and so do my kids. At work I speak English. Spanish is useful for speaking to cab drivers, but these days we have Uber. Had learning Spanish been mandatory, I would have resented it. I, obviously, have no objection to public schools insisting on (hopefully, multiple-)language proficiency (or any other requirements they consider essential for that matter), but I definitely would prefer societies not to tell adults what they are supposed to do and how they are supposed to speak. I have nothing against Ukrainian or Catalan, and I conjecture that, had I lived in those countries, I would have made an effort to learn the languages, but I certainly would not want any state to order me to do so. And, while I am willing to cut a bit of a slack for societies trying to preserve or strengthen languages that have been under pressure from the bigger "imperial" tongues, English, Spanish or Russian (which happen to be the only languages I actually can conduct a conversation in) are doing fine, thank you.

Again, I do not much care for Orthodox Judaism, and I would certainly be very sympathetic to any person from an Ultra-Orthodox background who would try to get out and get the skills necessary for life in a larger society. But I find it almost personally offensive when people from outside of such communities start insisting on their assimilation. While there is nothing remotely similar to the traditional Jewish ethno-religious separatism among the US Hispanics, it is the attitude of the larger society that I despise here.

Alas, most Jews in Mexico have switched to Spanish. Consequently, you cannot get decent gefilte fish here anymore. Instead, kosher stores are selling Nagila-brand chamoy. What a loss!

Об иммиграцию и ассимиляцию

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